Let's discuss the fact that this issue is being used to scare Americans. Just like 9/11, just like the bird flu, just like gay marriage now its time for the country to be scared of the Mexicans. Politicians and media the have worked this country into a frenzy and as usual it is the lowest common denominator that gets the most attention. That lowest common denominator brings out the racism that permeates this country and is so concentrated at the lowest levels of our society (i.e. the Minute Men). Take a deep breathe and look at how our nation has evolved and grown from immigration. Arriba America!!! Andale

I would agree that the topic is being used in political ways Jake - but what topic isn't? Medicare, education, gays, etc., ALL are used to push a political agenda by the left or right. I think that is what PD was trying to say in his post above. Let's stop using scary language and just talk solutions. Because I think everyone does agree there is a problem with the borders and illegal entry.

Quite frankly I don't know what the solution is either. I do know that we have this "problem" because the government was turning its head for many years to pretend it did no exist. Then one morning woke up and discovered that 12 MILLION people are here illegally. It should never have gotten to this point to begin with. But one could say the same thing about our current fiscal budget (we are broke), our education, etc.

The idiots (both Dems and Republicans) only deal with things after they become a problem, not before. Leadership and decision-making often lead to defeat at the polls - and we can't have that.

Here's a solution that I'll get flamed for, but so be it:

During the next base reorganization, close the bases located in middle America and rebuild them on the border, from Brownsville San Diego. Why do we need miltary concentrations in Kansas anyway? This does a number of things: first, it gives our military a purpose in times of peace (i know, i know); next, it provides an expanded border patrol without using a bandaid like the guard; and finally, it will offer a much needed infusion of money for these local economies on the border who need it the most. Economic development and border security all in one package.
Once this is implemented, we must increase the INS budget and provide a broader and more easily accesible path to citizenship for more people.
So, lets recap: relocate existing military facilities to the border, and increase / streamline the citizenship process so that those in need can still reach the promised land.

Jake I guess in fantasy land there are no laws, but here in the real world there are.

You don't reward people who break the law.

And another thing how come if your're on the other side of this debate and support the rule of law you are branded a rascist?

Nice spark, PD. :)

sure Wonk thats what i mean. As always you express the views of others better

The thing about people who consistently use the "don't reward people who break the law" thing is that there are degrees of infractions. There is also something called civil disobedience where you object to certain tenets of an unjust law.

For example, just because I speed on the way to grocery store doesn't mean that I am going to steal while I'm there.
There are numerous laws nationwide (most local) that are not enforced, or not fully enforced, because they are impractical. Now, the proper thing to do is alter or abolish said law, and no one is talking about abolishing our immigration laws, but instead altering them to be more practical.
It is simplistic to say that we can't "reward" immigrants with a better life since they didn't follow protocol when they stepped over the line. Using the grocery story analogy again, it would be similar to being denied buying your goods simply because you sped and broke the law on the way there. "We will sell you these goods only after you leave and come back while driving the speed limit."

Gallon of Milk: $6
Head of Lettuce: $3
Rent for a small one bedroom apartment $1000
Creating a Marshall Plan for Mexico to create real economic opportunity, stem the tide of illegal immigration, and improve the lives of millions: PRICELESS

Fixing the problem by creating a guest worker program, or sending home the illegals, or changing he status quo in anyway is going to drive up prices on the things we need everyday like milk, bread, fruit, vegetables, and yes your adored queso. The real solution to the problem is to work with Mexico (largest single source of illegals) and help them to create a strong and vibrant economy, educational system, and national infrastructure.

We won't do this for several reasons the biggest being that it will cost serious money, and we can only have defiects for destroying countries and making enemies. Others include the corporate desire to depress wages by exporting labor, fear of creating a rival on the continent (we took out Canada's aerospace industry for the same reason), and finally despite what you all may say, no one in this country (excepting those brave and wonderful souls that volunteer to wear the uniform) is willing to sacrafice a damn thing.

Yes more handouts for Mexicans. Great plan!

Funny thing is, wonk, is that I would bet you lunch that 90% of the illegals over here today are working harder than you, or any of us are.
Calling a plan to help someone WORK towards a better life a handout is part of the problem. I still haven't seen your plan.

Y'all are missing the core questions:

a) what entitles a person to American citizenship?

b) for those who aren't entitled, how many will we allow to earn citizenship?

c) what will be the qualifications to earn citizenship?

d) how will we deal w/ the fallout - those who aren't and don't get to be American citizens?

Discuss. Papers must be at least 3 pages, double spaced with 12pt Times New Font. Don't fuck with the margins - I use a ruler to measure the margins.

Blue-mowing grass is hard work so I'm sure that might be a correct assumption.

My plan:

1.Train the Guard for border insurgency.
2.Give some of the people the possiblity of citzenship....not guranteed.
3.Build a fence in high breech areas. We already have fences on the border so this is nothing new.

wonk, without getting hostile I can't help but point out that you said, "Train the guard for border insurgency." I assume that we are still referring to the US Mexican border.
Using "insurgency" in this context is either a major slip up, or proof that a portion of the US population has effectively been brainwashed into thinking we are under assault, that we are constantly in a state of conflict and that our livelihood is at stake. Insurgency is an armed uprising. What is happening at the border is none of that.
I don't buy into all of what Lakoff has to say, but i think he is onto something re: the strict father model. This constant "us against them" thing gets old.

Besides that, I don't think that our ideas on this issue are that far apart.

Let me step in and say, kudos to all of us. We seem to be having an actual discussion here with salient talking points and floating potential ideas and opinions here without too much name-calling and vitriol. Good for us. I can tell no one has started drinking yet, as we seem to be thinking clearly.

Let's keep it up. I'm listening.

Wonk - Handouts? Exactly how much does Mexico owe the US and the IMF, BIS, etc?

Blue - it's a great idea except for the Senators and Reps from KS and other states that would sooner cut all funding to DoD than see those bases disapeer.

Bacchus is right about a Marshall Plan, however we do need to create a far less porous border. The biggest obstacle to a Mexican Marshall Plan is internal corruption and a need for reform, not really the money which is minimal compared to what we are spending annually in Iraq.

Blue-what would you call the shoot outs that happend daily on the border?

I'll rephrase.....Train the Guard to deal with heavily amed banditos.

Heavily armed banditos? I would swear you were joking if I didn't know already that you didn't have a sense of humor.

wonk, the criminal activity that you speak of is still far removed from anything that could be considered an insurgency. The drug lord struggle in Juarez, and the missing Americans are tragic and should be dealt with, but it isn't endemic to the border, unfortunately. Under your definition, we have insurgencies in chicago, houston, and detroit.
Also, the banditos you reference aren't the people who are coming here looking for work.

I get your point, but you are overstating the issue, and again, that is what I see as part of the problem -- using too much emotion to solve a complex problem.

Internal Corruption? Yeah so glad we don't have that problem here, yet foreign companies and governments poor money into our economy. A Marshall Plan for Mexico would reduce corruption. If you make enough money to feed your kids, have a place to live, and your police force is able to protect you then you're much less likely to take or pay a bribe to make sure your needs are met. If you want to talk about upper level government corruption, a plan on this scale would require total transperancy, and again, if your needs are met in the open there is much less of an impetus to take care of them in the shadows.
I used the term "Marshall Plan" for the reason that implies more than just throwing money into a broken system.
The Marshall Plan worked because it wasn't it a carte blanc program of giving money and expecting results. Under the Marshall Plan local representatives and US representatives worked together to spend the money they were given to gain results the agreed upon together.

Once we committ to taking on the root of the problem then we can talk about making our border more secure.

correction
...for the reason that IT implies...

Blue you're right.

Bacchuhs, Mexico's government is infintely more corrupt than our's. This is soemthing a thrid grader could tell you. This is a problem that Mexico created and should be dealt with by Mexicans. No one has the right to come to America.

The reason why the Marshall plan worked was because Europe's infrastruacture was completely destoryed by WWII, and we had the oppurtunity to build from the ground up.

I would have to agree with Wonk on this one. Even though the cooruption in Mexico is pathetic and the major cause of illegal immigration, giving (or lending) the Mexican government money is pissing down a hole. A better idea is to fund underground "revolutionary" ideas to over-throw those at the top and the twelve families that are said to rule Mexico. In other words, the revolution needs to be had in Mexico, not the U.S.

PD: To make your head hurt more, read Meese's op-ed in the NYTimes today. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/24/opinion/24meese.html

Today's senate plan is what we did 20 years ago, and it didn't work. One of the main points: there wasn't political will to go after folks employing illegals. As long as there's demand, folks will figure out how to supply it, wall or not.

Seems to me the solution is two-parts: go after folks hiring illegals and help Mexico and other Central America countries with their own economies (NAFTA seems to have pushed things in the other direction). Neither seem as much fun as flying drones in the desert or giving big wall construction contracts to your buddies....

How about this .... Rep. Sensenbrenner is pig fucker

How about this .... Rep. Sensenbrenner is a pig fucker

gayinmidland-

Revolution in Mexico? We should foment a rebellion to over throw the government to get one that will be less corrupt? What the F-CK are you smoking? That worked so well in Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and Haiti! Thank God I am gay in Austin and not Midland

"Underground, revolutionary ideas?" like what, paying police enough to live so the drug lords don't buy and sell them and they can protect the judges that put the drug lords away? That's not revolutionary, and it I hope that it's never underground. Building safe, affordable housing? Paying teachers a living wage? Universities that more than just the children of those "12 families" go to. (Where the hell did you get that 12 families run Mexico and so what, two run the United States, Bush and Saud).

Wonk-

You think corruption is the reason people leave? People leave because they can't provide for their families.

Been to Mexico lately? Their infrastructure pretty much doesn't exist.

The Marshall Plan worked in Europe because it was a relationship between equals, built on the notion that the United States needed a market in which to sell its goods. It worked because we saw Europeans as able, and worthy and as the comments to my idea have shown, people just don't feel that way about Latin America.

I'm not going to get started on your asinine suggestion that no one has the right to come here. That's just beyond the pale.

If you're all so worried about corruption, make sure any advisor that goes down shines a big flash light on the deals they make. (I can't believe I'm quoting Reagan) "Trust, but verify"

If you build a wall, a fence, create a guest worker program, go after employers, or anything else that doesn't deal with the root cause of the problem (the pathetic state of the Mexican economy) you're going to see the problem get worse, and you're going to see prices on essentials go through the roof.

I agree their infrastructure is fucked. Yes people leave because thier government is not competent to even provide basic services. Know why?

Because they fucked it up themselves. This is their problem.

You know why the Marshall plan worked in Europe? Its was because they were competent. Something of which Latin America has never shown in their governments.

So tell me s country with no infrastructure and a history of corruption is good canidate to give money too because?????

Hell we might as well light it on fire and watch it burn.

That's one of the most blantantly racist things I've read in a long time.

Last time I looked Germany started the war that led to the desolation of Europe, the French, British, Italians, Turks, and all the rest of them contributed mightily to that desolation.

History of corruption? Just because you don't know European history don't assume that they aren't corrupt. Organized crime didn't come from Mexico, There are those that would argue that our government is one most corrupt in the history of the World.

Mexico was first the abused colony of Spain, then the French, and now the United States. For decades we have treated them as inferior, taken advantage of and encouraged their corruption for cheap labor, alcohol, and vacations.

We don't want a properous Mexico, we want a place where we can get cheap labor, $1 bottles of tequila, a 500 count bottle of Xanax, and a resort to forget the cares of our oh so stressful existence.

They are corrupt because we demand it, and the only way to fix it is to demand, and help make change.

I stopped reading that after $1 bottles of tequila. Can we mandate that somehow? Otherwise, what an interesting conversation this has been today! Kudos to us! But, it's after 4...that means I'm opening a bottle of Veuve right now. The sweet nectar of good champagne will let me forget all this talk of immigration.

Don't preach to me about history little man.

Latin America is known the world over for government corrupiton. Hell they are the poster child!

I knew eventually your rascism would come out. Blame the gringo! Eat a dick, moron.

This is their problem and they only have themselves to blame.

I knew Wonk would lose it eventually.

I'm the moron who wants anyone wanting to come to the United States to be given a Social Security number on the spot. No one gets hired here without one. For me, that's half the battle.

How's this for just one more moronic idea:
annex Mexico and Canada.

I know, I should just shut up. I will.

HAHAHAHA Yes I am racist Mexican who happens to be 80% British 15% Greek and 5% Native give or take. I knew I'd get PD with the cheap tequila, too bad France isn't next door. If it were we'd have dropped a wall on the Rio about 100 years ago.

Yeah well your're100% shit head thats for sure.

Wonk you whiny bitch...
"Because they fucked it up themselves. This is their problem."

Oh fuck. You know, I was honestly a little amused with your antics earlier but your shortsighted bullshit just pissed me off. It's our goddamn problem too because they share a border with us. Their instability ends up affecting us.

I'm still waiting for information on defaulted debts owed the US, IMF or the BIS by Mexico, boy.

Bacc - YES, EVERY GOVERNMENT HAS CORRUPTION. In fact, there is corruption in eveyrthing humans do. That's not the point. The point is if an aid package doesn't address it it'll be worthless.

All I'm saying is they created the problem. Throwing money at them won't help and you know that, fat tits.

I marvel that even supposedly intelligent people only see what they want to see when they read something. I think I have stated that dealing with corruption would be a part of a Marshall Plan type program, but perhaps I did not make that clear.

ANY AID PACKAGE TO MEXICO WOULD HAVE TO ADDRESS CORRUPTION BY BEING TRANSPARENT AND REQUIRING THE CONSENT OF AT LEAST TWO PEOPLE (one from the US, one from Mexico) BEFORE MONEY WAS ALLOCATED.

I hope that clears up any confusion on where I stand in regards to corruption, pissing away money, or throwing money at the problem.

Bacc - It does and I apologize for the carryover of negativity that would be more appropriately directed at stupid people. Like Wonk.

And Wonk... I'm still waiting, you impotent fuck. Mexican debt? You implied we were all the time giving 'handouts' to Mexico. BACK IT UP.

Look it up yourself fat tits.

You're the one that brought it up... you can't back up anything you say, can you? Let me ask you a question... does your buttplug hold in all these comments or can you squeeze them out around the edges?

lol...I don't have the time nor the patients too look up how much Mexico is in debt.

Let me ask you a question. Does all the cum you sallow create an inablity to use a search engine? Or is it because you dont sallow and its dried up and sealed your eyes shut?

The patients? Now you're a doctor? Proctologist I'd bet.

You derided a Marshall Plan for Mexico as a 'another handout'. Mexico's not in default on anything. So, why would you call it a handout.

As for your curiosity about my sex life, I take pride in doing EVERYTHING well, not that you'll ever know because I do have standards and trolls don't fall into an acceptable category. While I find your flirting cute and all, I think you're ultimately tiresome and am pretty sure I would find sex with you monotonous.

Plus, I doubt you can cum more than once every 2 hours.

Listen guys, some of us actually get on this blog to discuss issues and present facts to each other. Sure, often it involves being a little trashy or silly. All of that is fun, but Wonk, you need to reel it in a little. You make interesting comments at times, but your vulgar and pointless rants make all of your other entries seem worthless. I'm glad you're here to present some opposing viewpoints, but you're going too far. I want to read about your views and have fun reading it, not be offended by every post. Please calm down or just go away.

Do any of you know any border patrol people? Have you talked to them? My friend, who must remain nameless to protect his identity, a 15 year verteran Border Patrol agent, has been shot twice, stabbed numerous times, and hit too many times to count. So violence on the border is not a rare thing.

And while we're talking real world, how about the fact that 20 years ago someone working in a meat packing plant made between 15 and 20 dollars/hr. With the influx of illegal immigrants after Reagan's Amnesty program and their taking those jobs, those workers now make $9/hr. Yes, food used to take more of our budget, but Americans lived better, had health insurance, and could send their children to college.

A"I'm a nice guy," liberal knee-jerk reaction is inappropriate here. We need to treat our borders like our homes. I don't know about you, but I lock my doors and windows and no one comes in until I decide they can. I have a fence around my yard. Why would a fence around our nation be so bad?

And yes, Mexico and Central America have problems. And their problems are pushing some of their people to run away from home. But at some point, there won't be anywhere left to run. It's time to fix the problems everywhere. And we can start with making sure that when the World Bank, WTO, etc meet, that Labor, meaning normal people, get a seat at the table. After all, corporation have nothing to sell if there isn't someone to make a product and then buy it.